they say don't argue with feelings, so I wont. is this a response? at least it procured decent poetry. it has meaning, it has feeling and all that. but your calling my god a dead god. you know the feeling when you want to just bang someones head against the floor or something like that so they get it. and probably that person is just as frusterated with you. I want to say nuh uh, but to avoid contradicting your feelings I'll say how is it possible. except that I don't really want to understand cause I like it the way I am.
Its so silly. how can people endlessly searve out of habit? at some point they need a life to it. snob that I am, I don't usually shmooze with people like that. all my friends who I talk about god with have real feeling for their yidishkiet. so its kind of hard to imagine that there are really people like that.
try orchos tzadikim or chovos halevavos, 'specially the latter, for real feeling.
i've dabbled in each and i agree. it is silly to be a machine.
but i can't take the people who say 'we do it to remember _______ (insert: holocaust, israel, hashem, etc.).'
yes, it's important to remember the past; BUT it's called the LIVING torah. it has to apply to us now. this includes the people (rabbis or not) that think we're still in a polish ghetto. or that it's still 1920. upholding 'traditions' that came about due to necessity of that point in time. (do you know how the minhag of chassidish women shaving their heads came about?)
but i digress. i've played both sides of the fence and neither of them are very filling. doing nothing has no meaning to it (obviously), but following religious direction only helps the emptiness a little. and only b/c taking direction makes you feel like you're not completely lost. if you don't think about it.
or all the pesach minhagim. I do it cause I love (or attempt to love) hashem and its the right thing. although truthfully I don't do nearly as much as I should and tend to wonder if I really love him or I'm just fooling myself. but even if now I'm fooling myself, I know I should love him and hopefully one day will be able to the way I should. If he made me and did lots of good stuff for me (understatement) and thats what he wants me to do... of course he B"h bi"h gave me a relatively easy life as far as getting into trouble goes, so I have the good stuff. its probably harder for people with harder lives. (not that I want one which is what the hebrew was all about). and also I remember that no reason for a mitzvah is the reason. its just a made up taam which helps some people do that mitzvah. the real reason is cause he said so and wants you to do it cause he... forget it. I'm sounding like a mussar shiur. I don't want to feel like a mussar shiur. so I'll leave it as thats how I feel and think and thats what helps me. and without him I wouldn't be able to cope. You do what works for you. but you shouldn't feel empty. I don't like it if you feel empty. selfish little me.
hey. each their own. you have a right to an opinion and this is a place where the management wants to hear that opinion.
good for you. so now when you reread the above poem, do not insert a 'dear trixies86' before the actual post.
but there are others out there... i'm sure you know a few.
and while i'm not going to let myself be drawn into a never ending debate, let me ask you just one question: why do we daven a-fricken-lot of pagesin the siddur, if 3/4 of the content is saying the same thing over and over again in different words. ('what does the question have to do with what we're talking about?', you ask. erm... nothing really)
you read my mincha post on my blog- the one about what was god's message and then I davened mincha? that mincha, as well as most of my minchas in israel, every single one of the brochas that daven for mashiach was saying something else. and they were all saying something different than what my tefilla teacher said they should be saying, which is good cause you should be saying something different when you daven every day. I'm not saying I have good davening days every day- I don't, but depending on my sich, on good daveing days, my tefillah takes on something different. as you noticed I interpret poetry, stories, all that stuff according to what I think, so its the same with tefillah, I interpret it to how I feel. and you do realize that harliquin comes out with new books every month with exactly the same plot. and the same people read them. oh and the other part- the praise god part- if all the trees were paper and all the lakes and oceans and rivers were ink... ok, I'll give a mashal- you want to ask the prez for something you can either say A. hey mister prez. your a great prez, now would you be so kind as to pardon my brother from his life sentance or B. mr. prez. you are a great prez. that was great thinking on bill # 3453 and the way you dealt with the no child left behind contraversy was inspirational. and your personal family values are really something to be proud of.....45min later. now I was just wondering, my bro is in jail and... my personal way to act with people is A so I don't usually get stuff, but the girls who do get stuff act with B. B is just a smarter way to do it- not that god needs an ego boost. its more for us to realize how great god its. so we have a mitzvah of doing it. but the ikkur tefillah (oh boy, I'm getting all yeshivish on you) is the asking- thats what god wants you to do, and if your gonna go fast over ve'al hatzadikim and spend time on shema koleinu, why not. just ask for whatever you want. ps. re'ey beanyenu is a great bracha (this from a girl who woke up at noon and only davened brochos so far- dont' worry a mincha is planned)
well when the vocab isn't big enough you gotta use the same words over again. besides an hour and a half- what kavanah. weekday if I daven the whole thing I'm usually done in 25 minutes and that includes brochos thru aleinu. girl that I am, whole thing doesn't happen much- it did while I was in israel... shabbos can take 20-30 minutes for pesukei d"z I think the problem is that people don't understand the whole praise god thing. ask god is fine, you want stuff and he's the one to give it to you. thank god is fine too. he did great stuff and helped you out and made you born, but praise god is "your so great, your so mighty, dead people can't praise you, and all the soles praise you"- its not really something people connect to so much (except major suckups and lobbyests), which is why it feels so long and repetative. I'm pretty positive that if you check you will find how the meforshim explain that every singel thing you say has a totally different meaning. I learned hallel, 'sides for the fact that I always liked hallel cause it sounds pretty, I learned how every thing is getting to a different point and it all builds on each other. it was really great. it would be nice if I had the time when I was saying hallel.
also meowmer- she also goes by a name dutchess razmataz. maybe she'll e-mail me
whatever. when it comes to the stuff you really need, you don't just depend on davening. you give your own tefilah. i guess davening covers the basics, but does dictated prayer really help?
here's what I have to say on dictated prayer. you do what god wants you to do all the time, then he's happyer to listen to you when you really want it (like a friend who only calls you when she wants something vs. a friend who you shmooze with all the time- you like doing stuff for the second more than the first). if you can't get the kavanah in the dictated tefilla, then you have to do your own. but I think the ultimate is to get across your tefillah thru the dictated tefilla (I think I had a blog article on this- I didn't figure this out till this year) remember the mitzvah that you are obligated in is the dictated tefillah.
its still a mitzvah. so you do it because some days it wont end up lip service. I tell you friday I started davening and thought it was going to be one of those lip service days and I got to S"E and it wasn't. some days you really need him and it becomes real. until you get to around 45 I'm pretty sure pesuki d"z stays lip service. its a mitzvah that you have to do
but that brings back to what we mentioned before. until you need it, you don't mean it. when you need it, you say it regardless of whether it's an obligation or not.
if we are getting back into S"E now, no, you always need some of the stuff there, some days more than others. do you ever not need slicha? or shema koleinu? (just pulling the ones I always need)some days your just not in the mood which is why your run through it, when you feel like you need hashem you get in the mood cause that puts you in the mood. I try to daven hard every day because I heard that if you can do the tefilla without the yisurim hashem doesn't give them to you. I never really had the chance to see if it really works cause I only do it in theory. I have some good daveing days when stuff is good, and I don't think I got yesurim those days, but it doesn't really prove anything. besides if I did I would figure it as a kapparah for whatever, you know me.
also I asked my tefilla teacher what he thought of pesuki dezimarah and he said its to get you in the mood for davening. it doesn't necessarily work for us today. he doesn't think a girl should daven all pesuki d"z- which is when I told him we were talking about a boy (he is supposed to assume brother, little kid who I deal with, or future chosson) and he said thats what they put in order so thats what you do- the mitzvah thing we were talking about, even if it doesn't accomplish its original goal. so basically what I said before.
true, but when you really needed that s/t, did you only say what's in the siddur or did you add a few of your own personal words?
with all due respect to your tiffilah teacher, that doesn't make sense. if it's obselete, get rid of it. am i wrong? it's the same thing with the luach. why do we have todays of rosh chodesh, if we have the cycle down pat?
I think the stuff I need while I say whats in the siddur that has to do with it. I only recently started saying extra stuff in shema koleinu- I used to just think it. we don't get rid of obsolete things because we don't do mitzvos for the reason thats given for them, we do them because hashem said. I don't know too much about the rosh chodesh stuff, but I think it has to do with working out the hebrew year to the english year. besides, an extra day of rosh chodesh means more donuts
I'll get back to you on that point because there is something there that I never understood. soon as I ask it and get an answer I'll be able to formulate my own answer (the question has to do with what exactly torah shebal peh is) On a similar topic, I just read this book, the will- it was a good book, but I decided it falls under that catigory of jewish fantasy. the moral of the story was emunas chachomim, but there were no rebbes or rabbonim in the book. they were all neviim.
i'm not a major jewish novel fan. mainly b/c it's mostly about nazis, terrorists, and adventuristic kollel guys. but if this is different, perhaps i'll give it a try.
it has all three to a certain extent. adventuristic kollel and yeshiva guys, nazis, mossad and kidnapping. and he becomes frum at the end (strangely no one gets married) plus rabbis who were navi's. plot had much to be desired. writing style was pretty ok.
trashy mail order books. 5 plots mixed and matched so they come out with a bunch of new ones every few weeks. I'm not sure how it works exactly and don't read them.
soap, sorry I didn't answer where we were up to, someone didn't get back to me yet unfortunatlly. today is the cutoff date. unless I am told otherwise
"drumroll"
trixies is taking the big step. (that means going back to her own blog and shmoozing with you there rather than shmoozing with you on your blog- am I pathetic or am I pathetic.)
I might still be back today, but tomorow no more (if I can help myself)
its fine, today is a (I can't remember the right word like turning over your kitchen) day. tie up this end and rebegin that end. don't worry, I decided its that way when I decided this for a good reason. days almost over though.
also depending on what my rabbi answers me things may change.
trixie says that she got an answer but it would take too much back and forth, and she cant come on anymore, so sorry. she hates to leave you in the middle.
40 comments:
they say don't argue with feelings, so I wont. is this a response? at least it procured decent poetry. it has meaning, it has feeling and all that. but your calling my god a dead god. you know the feeling when you want to just bang someones head against the floor or something like that so they get it. and probably that person is just as frusterated with you.
I want to say nuh uh, but to avoid contradicting your feelings I'll say how is it possible. except that I don't really want to understand cause I like it the way I am.
now try to make sense of that.
i'm not saying that god is dead.
i suppose i'm refering to all the people who serve out of habit, all the people who's religion has no life.
in theory, to them god is dead, no?
Its so silly. how can people endlessly searve out of habit? at some point they need a life to it. snob that I am, I don't usually shmooze with people like that. all my friends who I talk about god with have real feeling for their yidishkiet. so its kind of hard to imagine that there are really people like that.
try orchos tzadikim or chovos halevavos, 'specially the latter, for real feeling.
i've dabbled in each and i agree. it is silly to be a machine.
but i can't take the people who say 'we do it to remember _______ (insert: holocaust, israel, hashem, etc.).'
yes, it's important to remember the past; BUT it's called the LIVING torah. it has to apply to us now.
this includes the people (rabbis or not) that think we're still in a polish ghetto. or that it's still 1920. upholding 'traditions' that came about due to necessity of that point in time. (do you know how the minhag of chassidish women shaving their heads came about?)
but i digress.
i've played both sides of the fence and neither of them are very filling.
doing nothing has no meaning to it (obviously), but following religious direction only helps the emptiness a little. and only b/c taking direction makes you feel like you're not completely lost. if you don't think about it.
did this make any sense?
or all the pesach minhagim.
I do it cause I love (or attempt to love) hashem and its the right thing. although truthfully I don't do nearly as much as I should and tend to wonder if I really love him or I'm just fooling myself. but even if now I'm fooling myself, I know I should love him and hopefully one day will be able to the way I should. If he made me and did lots of good stuff for me (understatement) and thats what he wants me to do...
of course he B"h bi"h gave me a relatively easy life as far as getting into trouble goes, so I have the good stuff. its probably harder for people with harder lives. (not that I want one which is what the hebrew was all about).
and also I remember that no reason for a mitzvah is the reason. its just a made up taam which helps some people do that mitzvah. the real reason is cause he said so and wants you to do it cause he... forget it. I'm sounding like a mussar shiur. I don't want to feel like a mussar shiur. so I'll leave it as thats how I feel and think and thats what helps me. and without him I wouldn't be able to cope.
You do what works for you. but you shouldn't feel empty. I don't like it if you feel empty. selfish little me.
A.It made sense
B. sorry about the long whatever post. thats what happens when its late at night and I'm in one of those moods.
hey. each their own.
you have a right to an opinion and this is a place where the management wants to hear that opinion.
good for you. so now when you reread the above poem, do not insert a 'dear trixies86' before the actual post.
but there are others out there... i'm sure you know a few.
and while i'm not going to let myself be drawn into a never ending debate, let me ask you just one question:
why do we daven a-fricken-lot of pagesin the siddur, if 3/4 of the content is saying the same thing over and over again in different words. ('what does the question have to do with what we're talking about?', you ask. erm... nothing really)
post length?
don't worry about it.
it's not like i'm going to run out of paper.
you read my mincha post on my blog- the one about what was god's message and then I davened mincha? that mincha, as well as most of my minchas in israel, every single one of the brochas that daven for mashiach was saying something else. and they were all saying something different than what my tefilla teacher said they should be saying, which is good cause you should be saying something different when you daven every day. I'm not saying I have good davening days every day- I don't, but depending on my sich, on good daveing days, my tefillah takes on something different. as you noticed I interpret poetry, stories, all that stuff according to what I think, so its the same with tefillah, I interpret it to how I feel.
and you do realize that harliquin comes out with new books every month with exactly the same plot. and the same people read them.
oh and the other part- the praise god part- if all the trees were paper and all the lakes and oceans and rivers were ink...
ok, I'll give a mashal- you want to ask the prez for something you can either say
A. hey mister prez. your a great prez, now would you be so kind as to pardon my brother from his life sentance
or
B. mr. prez. you are a great prez. that was great thinking on bill # 3453 and the way you dealt with the no child left behind contraversy was inspirational. and your personal family values are really something to be proud of.....45min later. now I was just wondering, my bro is in jail and...
my personal way to act with people is A so I don't usually get stuff, but the girls who do get stuff act with B. B is just a smarter way to do it- not that god needs an ego boost. its more for us to realize how great god its. so we have a mitzvah of doing it.
but the ikkur tefillah (oh boy, I'm getting all yeshivish on you) is the asking- thats what god wants you to do, and if your gonna go fast over ve'al hatzadikim and spend time on shema koleinu, why not. just ask for whatever you want. ps. re'ey beanyenu is a great bracha
(this from a girl who woke up at noon and only davened brochos so far- dont' worry a mincha is planned)
shmoneh esrey is different. so is shema.
90% of pesukei d'zimra is the same paragraph rearanged in an endless kaleidoscope of sorts.
♪♪♪ ...still it would now be enough to praise your name hashem, hashem your glory fills the heaven and the earth ♪♪♪
see the whole middle of my comment, starting with the "about praise god" part
and where is flor?
do you happen to know who Meowmers is, she signed my blog?
for an hour and a half? using the same words?
pleeeese explain.
meowmers? no idea.
well when the vocab isn't big enough you gotta use the same words over again. besides an hour and a half- what kavanah. weekday if I daven the whole thing I'm usually done in 25 minutes and that includes brochos thru aleinu. girl that I am, whole thing doesn't happen much- it did while I was in israel...
shabbos can take 20-30 minutes for pesukei d"z
I think the problem is that people don't understand the whole praise god thing. ask god is fine, you want stuff and he's the one to give it to you. thank god is fine too. he did great stuff and helped you out and made you born, but praise god is "your so great, your so mighty, dead people can't praise you, and all the soles praise you"- its not really something people connect to so much (except major suckups and lobbyests), which is why it feels so long and repetative. I'm pretty positive that if you check you will find how the meforshim explain that every singel thing you say has a totally different meaning. I learned hallel, 'sides for the fact that I always liked hallel cause it sounds pretty, I learned how every thing is getting to a different point and it all builds on each other. it was really great. it would be nice if I had the time when I was saying hallel.
also meowmer- she also goes by a name dutchess razmataz. maybe she'll e-mail me
whatever.
when it comes to the stuff you really need, you don't just depend on davening. you give your own tefilah. i guess davening covers the basics, but does dictated prayer really help?
read her profile. sstill in the dark.
here's what I have to say on dictated prayer. you do what god wants you to do all the time, then he's happyer to listen to you when you really want it (like a friend who only calls you when she wants something vs. a friend who you shmooze with all the time- you like doing stuff for the second more than the first). if you can't get the kavanah in the dictated tefilla, then you have to do your own. but I think the ultimate is to get across your tefillah thru the dictated tefilla (I think I had a blog article on this- I didn't figure this out till this year) remember the mitzvah that you are obligated in is the dictated tefillah.
even if it's lip service?
its still a mitzvah. so you do it because some days it wont end up lip service. I tell you friday I started davening and thought it was going to be one of those lip service days and I got to S"E and it wasn't. some days you really need him and it becomes real. until you get to around 45 I'm pretty sure pesuki d"z stays lip service. its a mitzvah that you have to do
but that brings back to what we mentioned before. until you need it, you don't mean it. when you need it, you say it regardless of whether it's an obligation or not.
if we are getting back into S"E now, no, you always need some of the stuff there, some days more than others. do you ever not need slicha? or shema koleinu? (just pulling the ones I always need)some days your just not in the mood which is why your run through it, when you feel like you need hashem you get in the mood cause that puts you in the mood. I try to daven hard every day because I heard that if you can do the tefilla without the yisurim hashem doesn't give them to you. I never really had the chance to see if it really works cause I only do it in theory. I have some good daveing days when stuff is good, and I don't think I got yesurim those days, but it doesn't really prove anything. besides if I did I would figure it as a kapparah for whatever, you know me.
also I asked my tefilla teacher what he thought of pesuki dezimarah and he said its to get you in the mood for davening. it doesn't necessarily work for us today. he doesn't think a girl should daven all pesuki d"z- which is when I told him we were talking about a boy (he is supposed to assume brother, little kid who I deal with, or future chosson) and he said thats what they put in order so thats what you do- the mitzvah thing we were talking about, even if it doesn't accomplish its original goal. so basically what I said before.
true, but when you really needed that s/t, did you only say what's in the siddur or did you add a few of your own personal words?
with all due respect to your tiffilah teacher, that doesn't make sense. if it's obselete, get rid of it. am i wrong?
it's the same thing with the luach. why do we have todays of rosh chodesh, if we have the cycle down pat?
I think the stuff I need while I say whats in the siddur that has to do with it. I only recently started saying extra stuff in shema koleinu- I used to just think it.
we don't get rid of obsolete things because we don't do mitzvos for the reason thats given for them, we do them because hashem said.
I don't know too much about the rosh chodesh stuff, but I think it has to do with working out the hebrew year to the english year. besides, an extra day of rosh chodesh means more donuts
mmm. donuts.
but hashem didn't write davening, the chachomim did.
I'll get back to you on that point because there is something there that I never understood. soon as I ask it and get an answer I'll be able to formulate my own answer (the question has to do with what exactly torah shebal peh is)
On a similar topic, I just read this book, the will- it was a good book, but I decided it falls under that catigory of jewish fantasy. the moral of the story was emunas chachomim, but there were no rebbes or rabbonim in the book. they were all neviim.
i'm not a major jewish novel fan. mainly b/c it's mostly about nazis, terrorists, and adventuristic kollel guys.
but if this is different, perhaps i'll give it a try.
it has all three to a certain extent. adventuristic kollel and yeshiva guys, nazis, mossad and kidnapping. and he becomes frum at the end (strangely no one gets married) plus rabbis who were navi's. plot had much to be desired. writing style was pretty ok.
i am sooooo sorry. but there is no way.
(up to here with c[edited]umby books. jewish or otherwise)
I guess that means no harliquens for you :p
i suppose not.
my loss.
(what IS harliquens anways?)
trashy mail order books. 5 plots mixed and matched so they come out with a bunch of new ones every few weeks. I'm not sure how it works exactly and don't read them.
sounds like an old lady novel.
yuck.
soap, sorry I didn't answer where we were up to, someone didn't get back to me yet unfortunatlly. today is the cutoff date. unless I am told otherwise
"drumroll"
trixies is taking the big step.
(that means going back to her own blog and shmoozing with you there rather than shmoozing with you on your blog- am I pathetic or am I pathetic.)
I might still be back today, but tomorow no more (if I can help myself)
good for you.
(but should you ever want, you can im me at badsoap10)
best of luck
you used to go to the same yeshiva that doodlehead currently goes too?
small world.
you didn't know that? we were tight even back then.
now stick to your resolutions!
its fine, today is a (I can't remember the right word like turning over your kitchen) day. tie up this end and rebegin that end. don't worry, I decided its that way when I decided this for a good reason. days almost over though.
also depending on what my rabbi answers me things may change.
hey, whatever.
trixie says that she got an answer but it would take too much back and forth, and she cant come on anymore, so sorry. she hates to leave you in the middle.
what can i say?
we'll all miss her, but simultanously support her decision.
best of luck.
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